High Performance Big Block Cadillacs
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Author Topic: 500 CI Mudder  (Read 19053 times)
MUDCADDY
C1
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Posts: 14


« on: December 21, 2009, 05:34:40 AM »

Just did some horse trading and ended up with a stripped and caged S-10 pickup body on a full size blazer frame....9" rear....10-bolt front.....6 point cage.....34" Swampers.....standard issue mud junk.
On the way home my buddy and I were discussing power options....500 caddy came to mind.
His dad has a Buick Street Rod with a caddy motor and he and his brother had a Caddy powered Malibu years back. He kept talking the torque and durability aspects of the Caddy motor.
When we got back to my house we looked on Craigslist and found a '76 500 Caddy motor and tranny just out of a mud truck....perfect. Motor had 100,000 miles on it when pulled and was only run a few times in the truck out behind the owner's house.
I picked up the motor/tranny Sat. afternoon....let the fun begin.
I'm going to probably do a quick re-gasket and bearing....comp check looks good so probably no rings......I plan on a MTS 15 cam with matching springs and machining. Maybe a quick valve job....but probably not much more.
The reason for the Caddy is supposed to be a cheap torque monster and if I get too far into hi-performance stuff I'll have a million dollars into it before it's running....I've done it before....I'm trying to keep my cool !!!!
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ST Dog
C4
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Posts: 499



« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 06:25:50 AM »

Larger intake valves would really help that cam.

MT15 cam is a bit much for the stock rocker arms.
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dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 02:30:48 PM »

Larger intake valves would really help that cam.

MT15 cam is a bit much for the stock rocker arms.


Ditto,

Pontiac 2.11/1.77 fit nicely [the proper length, there are several]

Good bit of cam for your apx 8.2-1 compression too, unless you have 3000 stall and plenty of gear imo. Afaik, the 10 would be safer, and might work better with the CR.

Guides will need to be shortened for any cam with much more than stock lift. Taller than normal 1.25" diameter springs for sb chev work, but beehives will function with a little less spring pressure, and are a good bet with stock rockers imo.

Dave
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 08:05:19 PM by dave brode » Logged

3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 02:34:15 PM »

Btw, MTS has a nice tech guide for $10.
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 08:09:52 PM »

http://northernautoparts.com/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductId=583

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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 08:20:40 PM »

I was thinking of using the Stage 1 rockers from MTS...... I agree the #15 is a bit much for the stock CR but I'm not really concerned with bottom end power......kind of shooting for 3500-5000 rpm....I have my choice of gearing and converter as this is a race only vehicle.
Going to do as much backyard blueprinting as I can....port matching.....rod prep....check all clearances...etc.
Do you have a manufacturer and part# for the beehives.....how much seat pressure am i shooting for Huh? I had planned on kissing off the tops of the guides in the bridgeport to give the recommended  .750 height.
Speaking of rockers I see there is a guy on Ebay selling tool steel rocker tee's......I realize it's not as strong as a full length shaft but might be an option for those wanting to run stock rockers.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-CADILLAC-472-500-TOOLSTEEL-ROCKER-TEES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35a2fa9615QQitemZ230367598101QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 05:34:17 AM »

Any comments on the tool steel Tee's Huh?Huh??
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dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 04:28:43 PM »

comp cams has a beehive, part # ends in 918. Used many times on the caddy, and drop onto the stock spring pads. Works with the steel retainers sold for those springs on a sb chev. There are other sources for beehives. Realize, most sbc springs are too short for a caddy.

GM has yellow beehives that'll work, but the i.d. is too small to drop on. The step must be cut to .815", or the guide cut to .625 and a $30 ish spring located can be used.

Tool steel tees: There was a fellow making them some time ago. A friend or relative on Luxlx. They were two piece, with the cross seperate from base. He sold them for $200. I have a set if anyone need some. I don't know anyone running the ebay tees.

Dave
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 04:50:35 PM »

search results for "beehive"

http://caddy500.com/index.php?action=search2
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 07:05:07 PM »

Thanks Dave....I'm flabbergasted by the stock Caddy valvetrain. I realize it's a luxury car and most weren't revved high or needed to be in stock form to perform as intended but man I can unseat the valves with my fingers !!!! Granted I'm a big strong dude but seriously. Springs look like old flathead stuff.
On the other hand I'm impressed by the factory torque numbers and the stuff that makes the BB Caddy friendly.....easy spark plug access, no water in the intake manifold, external oil pump. front mount distributor, high nickel block, big bearing crank, high deck height and long rods, cheap big cubes....list goes on.
As mentioned before I'm trying to keep my head....so far I horse traded my way into a cool project. I have other expensive projects including a NITRO HARLEY so I am REALLY TRYING to do this on the cheap.
I've had racing projects in the past including an altered that went from a single carb BBC to an injected BBC to a blown and injected BBC to a blown injected HEMI....get the picture.....faster....faster....faster. I have the Nitro bike to run on the ragged edge of destruction....I'm hoping to keep the mud-caddy project cheap and fun !!!!
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gary kosier
C1
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Posts: 6


« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 08:48:31 AM »

Hey Brode,

When I built the motorhome motor, I bought Comp Cams 255DEH cam and their
281-16 springs.  I looked at the springs, thought they looked familiar.  Dug out
a large box of SBC springs from the old days.  Same wire diameter, same no.off 1/3
of coils and same free height.  Only difference was they cut 1/3 off the damper to
clear the guide.  On my spring tester, they had the same tension.  Since the
installed spec they called for would have caused coil bind, I reduced it to a more
reasonable spec for a 3K max motor and saved a bunch of shims.  Worked fine.
Those yahoos they have working the phonesdon't want to waste their time
talking to anyone who doesn't have a Chevy racecar JMHO

Gary Kosier
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dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2009, 08:03:52 PM »

Mud,

The stock stuff, if not all burned up, will live of to 5000 or more with slow ramp cams and proper setup. I ran stock rockers with a howards 292/302 at .006"  232/240 at .050", .536" cam with the yellow GM beehives set at 95# seat. Went to 5500-5600 in the water box a few times. No problem. Some guys have run more cam and much more spring than that with stock rockers.


Here's a thread on the cheapest beehive that I know of. $54 ish from lingenfelter.

http://caddy500.com/index.php?topic=604.0

Note machine work required. Simplest fix is to use a comp 918, or other spring that is .885" ish i.d. that'll drop onto the caddy head.

Cheapest beehive that I know is the yellow GM, which would work by cutting guide to .625" and use a spring locator. The cup will take up .060", which is good. http://summitracing.com/parts/TFS-31400433/

If you use straight sbc springs, note the installed hiegth that they require. Even with a -.050" keeper, you'll have more than 1.800" to deal with on the caddy. If you buy a short chev spring that goes in at 1.700" or 1.750", you'll have a tough time reducing the extra room. I do not like to stack shims up. The step on the head is not that tall.  

I would not assume, and I would buy the parts first, do the valve job and them cut only whatever needed from the guides. I like to leave the guides as long as possible.


Dave
p.s. - The re-ringed 1975 year 87 octane engine that I ran last year is basically same as yours. Ported heads, but still stock valves. Only non stock parts were cam, springs and edel 2115. Cut heads .024", cut block .013". 8.6-1. Went 12.97 at 100 in my truck. It had 4.10s and 3000 stall, though

p.p.s. - gapless 2nd rings and 1 somender groove in quench area
 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 08:13:58 PM by dave brode » Logged

3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
ST Dog
C4
****
Posts: 499



« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2009, 01:49:31 PM »

Thanks Dave....I'm flabbergasted by the stock Caddy valvetrain. I realize it's a luxury car and most weren't revved high or needed to be in stock form to perform as intended but man I can unseat the valves with my fingers !!!! Granted I'm a big strong dude but seriously. Springs look like old flathead stuff.


When new the seat pressure was 60lbs (open was 155lbs). After 30+ years of use, they will been even weaker.

It was not really intended for operation above 4000 RPM. With new sprigs and the stock cam you'll get valve float around 4400.

But, you can get a 200,000 miles on one, within the design parameters. I seldom see 3500 rpm, and only when forced (WOT acceleration) with it get to 4000. Springs and rockers work just fine.

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dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2009, 02:43:56 PM »

Don't freak out over the stock stuff. Unless you have really well ported heads, larger valves, etc, you aren't going to get enough air into the engine to allow for power much over 5000 anyway. My ported head and ported 2115 edel stock valved 500" engine ran best shifting at 4800, even with a 292/302, 232/240 at 50, .536" cam.

From what I've read, and from my experience, as long as you keep open pressure to 300 or less, they'll be fine. Most slow ramp cams don't need even near 300 open. The yellow GM springs install at 1.800" on the LS engines for 92# seat. I stacked them to 1.780" for apx 95# seat on my low buck engine. Open pressure was a little under 300# iirc. The yellow springs are actually stiffer than the 918 comps iirc.

If I didn't have a machinist that could reduce the size of the spring step for the $53 yellow beehives, I would just have the guide boss cut to .625", run this or similar spring cup;
http://summitracing.com/parts/TFS-31400433/

Any decent shop has a cutter for that. Just run it down to the stock spring seat pad, do NOT lower the spring seat more. The spring cup will take up .060" of the "too much room" spring hiegth, run a reduced hiegth keeper, and adjust from there to get whatever installed hiegth you want. Spring cups make it nice as you can stack a little shim under the cup. I always cringe a bit when I see shims under the spring. You could have the guides cut to .500" to fit good seals while you are at it. I have found that core shift will usually not allow the stock cast guides to clean up at .530".

This retainer works with 11/32" valves and the yellow springs, and most other LS style beehives out there. http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=787-16&Category_Code=

Here is the ...918 comp spring. There are others that may be better [PAC etc];

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=26918-16&Category_Code=

You can run straight springs for less money that would drop on. They will require more spring pressure. Again, for straight springs, try to find something that goes in at 1.800" or more at the pressure you want. Beware, some 1.25" springs for sb chevs are REALLY stiff, and give way more open pressure than we need for stock rockers. K-motion springs are among the stiffest. Pay attention to open pressure [spring rates - lbs per inch rating].

Imo, fwiw, the beehives are worth the extra money.

Dave
 
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2009, 03:03:33 PM »

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Heat-Treated-7-Degree-Valve-Locks-11_32-Stem-030/productinfo/4333/

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Heat-Treated-7-Degree-Valve-Locks-11_32-Stem-060/productinfo/4336/
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
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