High Performance Big Block Cadillacs
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Author Topic: One ton chevy 472 swap ?'s  (Read 4459 times)
hmatiak
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« on: December 24, 2009, 07:35:32 AM »

OK, so im am debating this swap and stumbled across this site.

My truck is a 1986 one ton 2wd cab and chassis chevy.  Has a 454 and sm465 4 speed.  This is strictly a tow rick for the 4x4 toys.

The current 454 is around 90k mile and due for a refresh and a cam and valve train upgrade.

So i recently came across a 472 and bop(c) th400 both for 500 bucks with only 12k original miles on both out of a 1973 rwd caddy hearse.

Based on strictly intake and valve train upgrades, will the 472 out perform my 454 in a strictly tow duty rig?  Id hate to pass up this great deal, and i might just get it anyways.  Thanks.

-Heath
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~JM~
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Posts: 1848


« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 10:07:21 AM »

Heath,

Welcome to the site. There is plenty of good information available for the searching.

On the most basic level, I would answer your question with a yes. A couple of things that come to mind, are emissions testing in your area & rear axle gear ratio? Engine swaps & emissions testing could be a problem along with the existing gear ratio in your truck being too low geared for a Cadillac.

Even though the engine you are looking at has very low miles on it. It would be wise to change out the timing chain set & the valve guide seals. While you are at it, the valve guide heights should be reduced to provide the proper clearance for a camshaft with higher lift. A camshaft swap would be a good idea along with more suitable valve springs. Some of the OEM camshafts had a few degrees of retard ground into them in an attempt to improve emissions. You will also need to consider the oil pan sump location on both engines & your frame. Most likely you will need to find a rear sump oil pan from an Eldorado, or fabricate one.

This should give you few things to research. Fortunately this type of swap has been done before & your engine bay has plenty of room.

Good luck
~JM~
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PS. You don't have enough cam. Grin

...Summit has a kit for $99.... Shocked
hmatiak
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Posts: 3


« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 10:31:33 AM »

No emissions here to worry about.  Currently the truck has a 3.73 ratio, but a re-gear is not issue if its needed.  Should it not be a rear sump to begin with seeing how it was out of a RWD car?  Also im having trouble locating the aftermarket flywheel that ive been reading about.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 10:36:23 AM by hmatiak » Logged
dave brode
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Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 11:02:47 AM »

http://caddy500.com/index.php?board=8.0

Lots of reading here.

68-76 rwd = front sump.

425 and at least some 368 rwd = mid sump [will work in a 2wd chev truck]

68-77 fwd eldo = rear sump.
[1 extra qt oil capacity, but bring big bucks, pu tubes no longer sold new]

Bad = $350 for a stick flywheel. Crank need special pilot bushing. Adapter needed for the chevy bell

Make motor mounts, the hearse exh manifolds will work.

--

Fwiw, I might be inclined to swap an auto column in and use the extra long tail th400. That is, if your trans has a slip yoke. If your truck uses a bolt up yoke, you might need a drilled/tapped output shaft, which cam on only some short tail Th400s.

The 454 in your truck would bring $800-$1000 here. If the engine and trans can be sold for decent money, the caddy swap would look more appealing to me. If not, I might just freshen the 454.

Dave
 
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
dave brode
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Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 11:05:35 AM »

http://caddy500.com/index.php?topic=611.0
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
hmatiak
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Posts: 3


« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 11:12:17 AM »

Good info dave.  Thanks.

Either route there will be a rebuild on either setup with just upgrades to the cam, valve train and timing set. 

The main question is will the performance gains be worth the extra 500 up front to get the engine and trans?  Im not partial to the 4 speed, especially when we are talking 700-1000 bucks to make it work reliably.

I guess its whether its worth the money to me or not, but im just looking for the best bang for the buck torque setup without speeding a fortune on a cummins swap.
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dave brode
C5
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Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 03:30:35 PM »

The 12K mile engine would be a decent deal to most for $500, assuming that it isn't sludged up inside from so much shoert trip slow speed operation and lack of oil changes.

On the swap, it depends on if you enjoy such work, I guess. I suspect that the low compression 472 would make a nice tow engine. How much better than the truck 454? I can't say.

Dave
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
OldSub
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 06:01:54 PM »

I've concluded for myself that a stock 500 will outperform a stock 454 as a tow rig power plant.  From what I've read the 472 is going to be similar to the 500.

I specifically compared an '89 TBI 454 to a '76 Cadillac 500 and checked those comparisons against an early Cummins 6bt.  I have both the TBI 454 and the Caddy 500.  I'd need to go looking for a Cummins.

I'm doing this from memory so I may not get it all perfectly correct, but it appeared to me that there would not be a lot of difference horsepower wise but the Cadillac is ahead on torque.  Torque is what you need to tow so its going to be the better performer.

The 454 is heavier than the Cadillac.  The Cummins is heavier yet.  I'm not a Diesel fan and would rather hear a big V-8 roaring then a Diesel pinging.  But if you look at the horsepower and torque figures for the most recent light truck Diesels you'll see that a new Diesel is a hands down winner as a tow motor.

My project is a little older than yours, and any of these motors requires building my own mounts and doing some fabrication and engineering.  I counted that part a wash in my early considerations.  In your case a 454 is a direct bolt-in and therefore so would a 502, 540 or 572.  I'd consider those options before spending huge money on anything else.

I do plan some mild modifications to my Cadillac.  I plan to install the Edelbrock manifold and the MTS #5 cam.  With those changes I'm confident I'll have much more power available than the stock 454 would have provided and better towing power than a similar amount spent on the 454 could achieve.
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~JM~
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Posts: 1848


« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2009, 11:46:30 AM »

I believe the original MTS Tech Info made mention of the Cadillac swap providing a sizable increase in MPG vs. the 454 in a towing application.

Of course neither can compare to a Cummins for pulling power & high MPG numbers. The only drawback to the Cummins is the weight gain. I own a 3/4 ton '95 Dodge/Cummins 4x4 with the NV4500 trans. I have spent many $$$'s over the years of owning the truck on front suspension components. That extra weight up front really wears out ball-joints, bushings, tires, etc.
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PS. You don't have enough cam. Grin

...Summit has a kit for $99.... Shocked
OldSub
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2009, 02:11:26 PM »

I believe the original MTS Tech Info made mention of the Cadillac swap providing a sizable increase in MPG vs. the 454 in a towing application.
That same claim is also made in the Big Cadillac book.

I'm eager to put that claim to the test.  My own experience towing with a 454 in a 1-ton 4x4 was that fuel mileage was terrible.  Best I ever did was 10 mpg IF you allow me to round up generously.  My hope is that my 500 powered truck will do 15 empty and over 10 loaded.  It doesn't need to do even that to pencil out as cheaper total than a Cummins swap unless someone gives me a ready to run motor and transmission.
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