High Performance Big Block Cadillacs
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Author Topic: Front engine dragster direct drive  (Read 4881 times)
nitrojoe
C1
*
Posts: 17


« on: December 29, 2009, 02:22:00 PM »

 I'm building a FED and am going to run a mild 500 Cad engine between the rails . I just wanted to get some ideas on running it direct drive with a Lenco reverser . What bellhousing , clutch , flywheel would you consider and what gear ratio would work for 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile with a 5000 rpm limit . The car is getting a narrowed Dana 60 and will have 10.5 slicks . As far a clutch , I figure a dual disc McLeod unit will hold the torque of the Cad .

My reasoning for direct drive is for nostalgia and I don't want to shell out $ 3000 + for a powerglide w. transbrake . The turbo 400 is just too heavy .

Ideas ?

Thanks ,

Joe
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 02:55:11 PM by nitrojoe » Logged
ST Dog
C4
****
Posts: 499



« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 11:02:50 PM »

BOP bel housing, but make sure it ahs provisions for the starter on the right side.

Flywheel, See MTS, $545, for use with 10 1/2 or 11" clutches.
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-48/Flywheel--dsh--Billet-Steel/Detail

That doesn't include the pilot bearing/bushing and the modification to the crank for the bearing and the transmission input shaft.


Sorry, no ideas on the gears.
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nitrojoe
C1
*
Posts: 17


« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 03:48:33 AM »

BOP bel housing, but make sure it ahs provisions for the starter on the right side.

Flywheel, See MTS, $545, for use with 10 1/2 or 11" clutches.
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-48/Flywheel--dsh--Billet-Steel/Detail

That doesn't include the pilot bearing/bushing and the modification to the crank for the bearing and the transmission input shaft.


Sorry, no ideas on the gears.


Thanks ST Dog for the direction . It's a start !
The highest ratio available for a Dana 60 pro gear is 4.10
I'll probably need to plan on running 5000-5500 max rpm with those gears and get the tallest 10.5 slick available ( 33" ) .

« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 05:07:39 AM by nitrojoe » Logged
dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 04:09:35 PM »

Joe,

The direct drive thing would be cool, I suppose, but I question the logic. What kind of money for clutch freshening and such? Not to mention the cost of the stick flywheel. Would the car really have enough power with a mild caddy to pull high gear only and not be a slug?

As light as it is, a TH350 with a few upgrades might live a long time. Not as light as a glide, but I hate a 1 shift glide anyway. Could you sell the reverser to help with costs?

I also question the need for a pro gear. I have a friend that went 9.40s with a trans brake equipped 3200 lbs [with driver] B1 powered dart with 35 year old stock 60 gears and power lock posi.

Dave
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
nitrojoe
C1
*
Posts: 17


« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 06:35:38 PM »

Thanks Dave ,

This is the type of input I need right now as the car is in the construction phase and driveline considerations have moved to the top of the list .

Direct drive is definitely nostalgia and there are a few nostalgia FED associations that mandate direct drive only with a reverser . Those cars are either injected nitro or blown alky and have the torque to pull the rear gear .
I was guessing that with the torque of a mild 500 Cad , it would move a 1500 pound dragster pretty good . Running direct drive is such an unknown and I definitely don't want the dragster to be a slug !
I know that the TH350 can be beefed-up to handle big block power and the weight is definitely a benefit . Right now , I don't own a Lenco reverser .

I'm thinking the same thing about using a standard 8620 gearset for the Dana 60 and the ratio options would favor having the rpm limit fall into mild Cad engine requirements .
I'm going to have a conversation with a local transmission guy about the TH350 and see what his price is and how it would stand-up to the torque .

 
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MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 05:33:39 AM »

Hi Joe....
I don't know about alky motors running direct drive..... direct drive requires the kind of power only Nitro produces. I ran a Lenco 2 spd with a 3 disc Crowerglide in my blown alky big block for a short time. It came from an older nitro funny so first gear was 1.15.....15% under 1:1...........my 60 ft times went from 1.05 with a powerglide to 1.30 s !!!!! ET fell off too but MPH was at an all time high due to the lack of slipping torque converter.
If you run direct you will need a glide clutch....dual or triple....if you try and use a pedal clutch it's going to fall on it's face no matter how high you rev it when you swap feet.
Plus the standard flywheel is going to have to be special order no matter whose clutch you use.....then there's the pilot bushing deal.
I would be tempted to build a powerglide....light.....nostalgia correct.....and worry free.
I don't know what you have for a fuel system but stack injectors seem pretty cool......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZo8U8KCdPg

Keep us up to date.......if you are going to run Nitro I would start buying caddys for spares......just in case you split a block or something...... Grin Grin Grin



VERY COOL PROJECT !!!!!!!!
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nitrojoe
C1
*
Posts: 17


« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 09:36:00 AM »

Thanks Mudcaddy for the info on what you were running and the results .
I do plan on prototyping my own stack fuel injection and will post pics as it develops . I'm using 4 quadrajet baseplates with the primarys milled off and will be making my own manifold .
Running the 500 Cad on low percentages of nitro , ( 25% ) to start , is also in the future plans .
Occasionally powerglide deals pop up and it may well be the way I'll be going .
I'm going to do some more digging into running direct drive and ways to soften the clutch engagement either by using a hydraulic throwout bearing or clutch adjustments .
I'll keep you guys posted !
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nitrojoe
C1
*
Posts: 17


« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 10:07:57 AM »

Found this item of interest !

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Tilton_Hydraulic_Clutch_Flow_Control_Valve&form_prod_id=174,168_4019&action=product
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dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 02:41:35 PM »

Hey MudCaddy,

Badassed unit you have there!

Dave
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
ST Dog
C4
****
Posts: 499



« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 05:16:58 PM »

MudCaddy,

Is this you?


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MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 09:12:43 PM »

Ought ohhhh....YEP....it's me.....one of a few funny car chassis I built over the past 5 years.

NitroJoe,
I had an old AFT pedal clutch that came with an air operated release delay.....it held in the throwout bearing to keep the clutch from locking until down track. Never used it but they weren't too popular.
I would search for a used glide clutch....your going to have to do some fab work to get anything to work so why not run what works with Nitro Huh? The cool part about my old Crowerglide is it had the pilot bearing in the flywheel so it didn't need to be in the crank.
My latest direct drive Nitro powered obsession is this.......

96 cubic inches of Harley Davidson....sporty 4 cam motor.....S&S Nitro carb......centrifugal clutch....80" wheelbase moly frame.....10" wide rear tire......fired it today on my homebuilt alky dripper system just to make sure it worked.  Would have liked to turn on the fuel but it was cold and windy outside and I didn't want to fill the house with Nitro fumes. I wouldn't mind but my wife might not like it.
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nitrojoe
C1
*
Posts: 17


« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2010, 08:25:22 AM »

That is one nasty ride Mudcaddy ! Someone took a pic of Russ Collins launching his Sorcerer top fuel bike and his eyes were white , because the launch caged his eyeballs back into his skull ! I'll keep looking for a good used Crowerglide and something may turn up on Racingjunk or other areas . I agree , if you eventually are going to be running fuel , build it accordingly . 
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MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2010, 04:23:02 PM »

The funky part about the Ironhead Sportster is it's kind of like the original Chrysler Hemi. Ports and chambers too big to make real power on gas .....had plenty of trouble areas in stock form ...tranny was too weak.... oil leaks.......noisey valvetrain.......lousy starting system.....etc.
But put a load of fuel in it with the right clearances, tuneup and oil and it will make 6 times the original horsepower and live while doing it.
Kind of like the Caddy motor....the valvetrain can't get past 4500rpm in stock form but the crank and block are capable of up to 1200hp with the right pieces.
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dave brode
C5
*****
Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 04:37:13 PM »

Bad unit there, MudCaddy. Your gonads are bigger than mine, that's for sure.

An old friend of mine loves the iron head XLs. He ran a stock chassis, no wheelie bar sporty back in the early 70s. He ran 88%, went 9.80s using high gear only with the rock hard tires back then.

He said, you would spin the hard tire to about the 1/8th then when you felt it getting traction, you would let off a little so it wouldn't flip over, then ease back into it and hope that it didn't blow up.  Shocked

I have a 118" Twin cam '99 lowrider [for sale], 133h 151 lbs-ft in 5th on a dj250, but it's just a ride around and spin the tire thing. The rider does not have large enough nuts to run it. Actually, I hardly ride it since I bought a geezer glide ['02 FLHT - 95", 118h 114 lbs-ft]

Dave



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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
MUDCADDY
C1
*
Posts: 14


« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 06:44:18 PM »

Yeah Dave...
No worries about the blowover with the wheelie bars but plenty of blowup concerns...lol Cheesy
I was talking yesterday to the previous owner. He's going to show up for my first day out to guide me. We were talking jetting and he said with what's in it now he doesn't expect for it to make it past half track with the plugs still lit !!!
I guess he wanted it plenty safe so he jacked up the main jet. There is a big difference between my weight and his and he didn't want me to lean out and bang the motor right off the trailer.
I guess we will lean her down as we go....lean is mean.....fat is safe !!!! :Smiley
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 06:49:08 PM by MUDCADDY » Logged
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