Whats it take to put a 500 in an 87 that has a 4100?

[Vern]

A friend of mine wants to know and am hoping to get a basic list. 

[~JM~]

"Whats it take to put a 500 in an 87 that has a 4100?"

I dunno Vern... Maybe a new tranny? 

I can't recall ever hearing about one that small being done before.

Here is a bit of info on an '80 Fleetwood
http://caddy500.com/index.php?topic=101.0

Here is board member SMITH29's '78 Seville
http://forums.500cid.com/showthread.php?t=703&highlight=seville+sleeper

Did board member Cad-Vette-Stang ever build one in that date range? He might be a good contact on that. Sorry I can't think of anything else for you. I'll dig around in my stuff & see if I don't stir up some old memory.

~JM~

[~JM~]

Hey Vern,

I've been thinking about your question & I remembered one of the old Cadillac sites I found long ago.

How many of you guys remember the old "Eldorado Country" site? Unfortunately it has become one of the many dead links in my Cadillac Favorites. I was able to bring it back with the Wayback Machine. I didn't see anything directly related to your question, but there may be several small pieces of info that can help.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.eldocountry.com

Eldorado Country
http://web.archive.org/web/20070719043145/www.eldocountry.com/eldo/index.html

The HT4100 Swap Guide for the Eldorado
http://web.archive.org/web/20070924193546/www.eldocountry.com/eldo/swap.html

If I find anything else, I'll let you know.

Good luck
~JM~

[DaveM]

Vern.... Are you talking RWD ?   If you are, finding a donnor car thats a 77-79 full size caddy will have about all the parts to do the swap..trans, rear end, motor mounts...the exhaust system and many other parts can be used..

[CadVetteStang]

Vern,
RWD or FWD? That is the question.

Here is a list of various engine weights to consider:
2.8/3.4 L - 358lbs (V6)
Cadillac 4.1 / 4.5 / 4.9L  - 371lbs
3800SC series II - 445 lbs.
Chev LS1 - 458lbs automatic 497lbs manual (due to flywheel and clutch)
LS4 all aluminum V8  - 468 lbs
Cadillac Northstar - 468 lbs
3.4L DOHC -  492.5 lbs
Corvette L57 - 505 lbs
Chev LT1 - 562 lbs automatic 620 lbs manual  (due to flywheel and clutch)
Caddy 472 / 500 – 597 lbs. with aluminum intake.
Caddy 472 / 500 – 625 lbs with cast iron intake.

Let’s talk FWD and engine weight first:
The 4100 is only ¾ “ longer and only 13 lbs. heavier than a 2.8 V6.
The HT 4100 was the first gen of that motor and had problems. The 4100 (in 1987) was the second gen and hade few problems. The 4.5 was the third gen and was almost perfected. The 4.9 was the fourth gen. and has been historically reguared as caddilac’s most reliable engine. If you are talking about a light weight 87 FWD, I’d swap in a 4.9 because it has 275 lbs of TQ at 3000 RPMs. You can even use an Alante Cam and roller rockers for some extra power (and they can be punched out to a 5.4 if I remember correctly.) If you used the sequential port fuel injection off of the 4.9, you would be in the 28 – 29 MPG range. The zero weight increase would not throw off the handling or require any suspension mods or engine cradle mods, it would be a drop in and bolt up mod. The 4.9 has just as much punch off the line (with automatic trans) as a Northstar because it makes all of its power in the low RPM ranges. The 500 Caddy is much bigger than the 4100. I may be wrong, but I do not think that engine will fit the cradle of an 87 FWD in a sideways position, and I think the engine bay is too short for a longitudinal position.

Also, the 87 car’s tranny would not survive behind a stock 472. The 4.9 was power limited by the factory to save its tranny which was pushed to the limit with 275 lbs. of TQ. It is why the Northstar Caddys came with a new Tranny. If, however, your customer wants a 500 sideways mounted in a FWD application, I would pull the K frame and tranny out of a FWD Northstar car. The Northstar is ½” shorter and ½” narrower than a 500. However the 500 is much taller. I think the 500 would fit sideways in the Nothstar cradle and I think the tranny would handle a stock 500. However, you would need a computer to shift it. I am currently researching what it would take to put a 500 sideways in a 93-2002 Eldorado / STS, but have only started with that research. I know that to get that operating correctly, I will have to adapt the fuel injection and all sensors from the Northstar into and onto the 500 so that I could run its fuel injection and distributorless ignition. That way, the stock computer would operate the tranny and lockup. But that conversion is years away, so I have not been thorough yet.
So, maybe, you could use a Northstar’s K frame. Maybe you could adapt it to an 87 front end. Maybe you could get a tranny shift contol computer to shift the stronger transmission, and maybe you can retrofit all of the fuel injection components. Maybe. But the result would be $5,000 worth of labor (not including parts) in a car worth $2500.

Not only would the 500 cost more in labor to install than it would to rebuild it, but the car would be way too nose heavy to corner, and way too light to get traction. Plus it would eat trannys for breakfast, lunch and dinner…. Bottom line, for a sideways mounted FWD, I think the 4.9 is the winner. All it would take is a motor, some hand tools, and a weekend.

Now RWD:
If you use the aluminum intake, you are still going to gain 226 lbs. in engine weight over the 4100. (If the car had a 350, you would only gain 28 lbs.) Unless you want to lower the car, you will need springs from a 350 car (or as DaveM suggested, a 77-79 full size car as a donor).  The 500 should not be much problem getting into the engine bay in a longitudinal position. The tranny bolt pattern is the same between 4100 and 500- but I’m not sure what tranny you have. You will need to make sure you use a dual bolt pattern flex plate or the torque converter won’t match. (When I put the 472 in my 82 Eldorado, I discovered that AFTER I had the engine in the car and was bolting things up). If you use the stock tranny, remember that your computer controls the lockup converter, so there will be some issues there if you want to keep it.

You will also probably need to use RWD 472 / 500 exhaust manifolds from a 71-76 RWD The Eldorado exhaust manifolds may give you problems. Headers would be a good choice here.

Whereas the sideways FWD conversion is not worth it, the RWD conversion would be well worth it. But consider that everything behind the flywheel is light duty to allow the 4100 to pull the car without fighting the drive train. That means to make the car dependable over the long haul, everything behind the flywheel needs to be heavy duty because the engine you will be putting in has more torque than a cammed up 454 with a full roller rocker setup. You will be adding over 300 lbs of TQ in the usable RPM range with a stock 500 engine over what the 4100 has now.

Sorry I could not give more specifics on the RWD changeover.

Cody G. Carson
“CadVetteStang”

[Vern]

Yea the car is a rwd fleetwood.

[steelybill]

That likely has a 2004R transmission, which will not handle any aggressive driving with a 500 ahead of it.  I had an '85 RWD Fleetwood.  A better choice may be a 350 Buick engine, or maybe a SB Chevy.  Some of the 2004R transmissions have a dual bolt pattern to use in Chevys or BOPC.
  The other thing, is that different front springs would help in keeping up with a bit heavier engine, like one of the ones listed above.

[~JM~]

Hey guys,

I want to thank everyone for providing as much info as possible. Something that I should probably share with you all. Vern is no stranger to the Cadillac. Check out his signature. He's built at least one real nice Caddy powered G-body that I know of. Plus he is the first guy that I can recall that has successfully run the 200-4R overdrive tranny behind a fairly stout 500.    

~JM~

[steelybill]

 Yeah JM, I saw his signature work AFTER I posted!!  He knows what's going on alright.   And speaking of the 2004R, I was on the Gearstar site, and they make a 2004R that can handle a ton of torque and HP.  Not cheap, but interesting.  I just rebuilt a TH400 for my project, and I'm beginning to wish I would have used something else, since the 400 is so dam heavy.

Vern: sorry for the ignorant post!

[~JM~]

Yes that is quite a trans web-site.
http://www.gearstartransmission.com

Here is another one that may be worthy of checking out.
http://www.cpttransmission.com

I have no idea if either company is better than the other. If anyone else has any feedback, please let us know. Perhaps a new thread could be started.

Thanks
~JM~

[steelybill]

Thanks for the Art Carr site JM.  I see he has a lot of the HD parts for the 2004R..  Pricey transmission to rebuild if using all the HD stuff to make it live. Maybe I'll just use the 400 and not get carried away with an expensive 2004R.

BILL

[~JM~]

The 2004R may be worth that money. How much will a 2004R change how much you spend on the rear axle gears, etc?