High Performance Big Block Cadillacs
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Author Topic: Finally starting my swap 86 442 with 500 caddy  (Read 6294 times)
yellowroket
C2
**
Posts: 28


« on: April 04, 2011, 07:17:32 PM »

Hey guys been awhile but Im finally getting around to my swap. Started on it two years ago and life got in the way. I ended up going to the dark side and building a SBC for it so I could cruise around last summer! Sold some of the parts I aquired to fund that motor and now am starting over. I recently ended up buying Daves low compression short block and a set of ported 120cc 2.11/1.77 valve heads he had. Pretty much have everything I need to get started. I have a mid-sump pan Im going to try and use (because its what i have right now) and if it fits cool if not I will just track down a rear sump. I just ordered a set of headers for it, again possible going to the darkside. They are coming from cadco!! I havent heard alot of positive things about them, I bought some stuff years ago and the quality was so-so. If they are of good quality and fit nicely it will give us a reasonible option for headers. Honestly I dont have the skill to build my own set and cadco seems to be the only one making swap headers for the g-bodies. For just under $500 (uncoated) I dont think I could have had a set of BBC converted for that price. I havent built my mounts yet so I will build them around the fitment of the headers. I will try to take pictures as I go and will get some of the headers and fitment of them. Car is an 86 olds 442 thats in pretty decent shape, the motor should be around 400-450ish horse and is getting a switch pitch th400 I guess I will have to rename it a 4-3-2 lol. It currently has 3.73 posi, maybe too much gear but Im going to run it first and see how I like them with the big block. Plus they are building a new 1/8 mile track not far from me so I may stay with the steeper gears. Project will probably move pretty quick once I get started this time. My baby girl is due in about a month and I really want to bring her home from the hospital in the Olds. Freakin gear heads Grin
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 07:41:56 PM by yellowroket » Logged
~JM~
Shop Keeper
C5
*****
Posts: 1853


« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 07:50:31 AM »

Sounds like a great start. Doesn't the 442 have the 8.5 rear axle & a full set of guages?  Cool

I wouldn't believe all that you've heard about CadCo. I think much of the stigma associated with CadCo was due to the previous owner. They are deeply involved with the Spectre land speed streamliner that is making people take notice of Cadillac power.

Good luck on your project
~JM~
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PS. You don't have enough cam. Grin

...Summit has a kit for $99.... Shocked
Mike P
C2
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Posts: 87


« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 03:40:36 AM »

  Welcome back and congratulations on the new addition to the family. 

 I think you will find that you will be looking for a rear sump pan and pickup.....even with the rear sump there is not a lot of wiggle room.

  BY the way I got my El Camino project on the road the begining of the year and have been using it as a daily driver and will be taking a 3000 mile road trip in it in a few weeks......definately worth the work.
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Vern
C2
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Posts: 60


« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 06:20:14 PM »

I built a 10-1 509ci that I put in an 88 Cutlass and later after an accident into an 87 442.  On www.gbodyforum.com look up poster dogshit and click the pics botton.  I used an Eldo pan.  I set the engine in and bolted it to the transmission before having a shop cut up my BBC gbody headers and use my Cadillac flanges to make my headers. I would use 1.75 primarys with stock valves or 1 7/8 with bigger valves.  I used a 3" collector and recommend useing 3" pipe from the collector to the X or H pipe.  Ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure when it comes to headers.  At minimum strip and paint them with several light coats of good header paint with at least 24 hours of cure dry time between the first and second coats.  Also fwiw I am a big fan of www.remflex.com gaskets. 

I used early heads for better flow and compression.  They have a coolant tube sticking out the back of the passenger side head. For close fitment to the firewall so I used pipe fittings and a 90 from Lowes. I also cut the side off of the AC hampster wheel box laid it in a bit and fiberglassed it back it so that I could take the valve cover on and off without having to loosen a motor mount and jack the motor up. It was cheap quick and EASY. On the drivers side the headers or exhaust manifold will be very close to your steering arm.  Pay attention to how you do your mounts as you want the engine centered and as far back and low as possible. I used the MTS kit but Cad torque and traction bent one!  So the second time I used thicker angle iron. The big Cads seem to have one sweet spot where everythng fits nice everywhere with anywhere else having little issues everywhere.  Don't be scared its not a major pain swap but you will want to take your time think everything through and check everything as there is only one sweet spot.  The pan will stick down but it will not scrape even when bottomed out.  The Edelbrock and Q-jet will fit with a drop breather and maybe triming some hood braceing.  I have rode many gbodys with hotted up SBCs and the Cad was SO much more fun both driveing and at cruise ins/car show.

I used the 3.73 with a 29 tall tire with a lock up coverter and an overdrive.  It won't like it very well with a three speed.  You can use the brackets and pulleys from an 80/81 368 to use the factory AC with your Edelbrock intake.  If you do that there are two pulleys from the 368 that are pressed together and need to be popped apart.  I used the factory 442 tach and oil presure guage.  The 442 springs work ok but use the angled oil pump from a 425 to fit with front sway bar.
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87 Olds 442, 509 Cad, 800 Q-jet, Alum intake, Street portd heads, 230@50 528lift cam, Headers, 200-4r 2800 stall lock-up convertr, Electric fans & intank fuel pump, AC, 17mpg hwy

87 Buick GN, TE-60 turbo, stretch intercoolr, 42.5lb injector, 3" downpipe, Meth/water injection~Both 2 run 11.8ish113
yellowroket
C2
**
Posts: 28


« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2011, 07:56:56 PM »

Thanks guys!!
Headers were suppose to be here today but never made it because they couldnt find the address. Fed ex guy must be an idiot cause the house is only 20ft from the main road. Oh well maybe monday. Going over tomorrow to mock engine up and just set down in the bay to see what everything looks like. Im probably going to drill the block below the thermostat and put a heater nipple there so i can get the engine set back a ways. Probably going to be looking for an eldo pan as well, my mid sump has had some surgery done to it so im just going to try and set it in and see what it looks like. Gonna run the 3.73s and th400 for now, 1/8 mile drag strip being built close to the house. See what they are like may swith to 3.23s down the road. Have an oil pump for a 425 and a bunch of angle to build my mounts out of. Still waiting on some shims i bought so I can set my rockers and loose some pre-load on the lifters. Getting close to summer I need to get my butt in gear.
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yellowroket
C2
**
Posts: 28


« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 03:19:14 PM »

Well the motors set down in. Took alot of work using a mid sump pan, its tight but it fits. My pan had the sump extended two inches which made more work. I set the motor in and took some measurements of where the pan was going to set against the crossmember and pulled it back out. Took a torch and heated it up a bit (with it bolted to the block to try and keep from warping it) and pushed the front of the sump back about 1/4 inch. Would have made it much easier without the sump being extended. I set the motor back about one inch farther than most, the back of the motor mounts are sitting about 1/2" on the crossmember so the pan would work. Had to massage the firewall a touch on the drivers side, I ground the srews that hold the throttle and colum to the fire wall flat and heated and pushed a section back about an inch. On the passenger side I want to keep my heater but hate the look of the A/C box, not to mention with the engine as far back as I put it would have been a nightmare to get the rear spark plug in. So I tore out the heater box and cut the section that holds the A/C condensor out, going to just cover it with fiberglass. The car will never have A/C and it really opens alot of space by getting rid of it. The way its setting right now I can just run some flat 3/8" plate on the cross member and weld it in.

The car originally had a 2004r in it so the cross member worked in the stock location with the th400. The factory cross members trans mount pad is slotted and about an inch long, due to moving the engine back I had to extend the slot in the mount pad another inch rearward.

Got my headers yesterday from cadco, Chris there was very helpful. The headers look to be of great quality, thick flanges at the engine and collector. I ordered the uncoated ones (due to $ reasons) and they came with silver header enamel already on them. I was worried about the fitment because they built the headers around their bolt in mount kit, again I didnt want to pony up the cost of that. Not to mention moving the engine back an inch. When I went to put them on the passenger side dropped right in from the top without a single hassle and on the drivers side I had to jack the car up about a foot and put it in from the underside. Drivers side header would have went in without any issues had I not moved the engine back so far. The rear most tube was hitting the firewall below the head, still only took a few blows from the trusty Big Freakin Hammer and it went right in. I am very impressed with the headers, fitment is tight but they clear everything. They are pretty close to the rag joint on the steering colum within an 1/8 or less but do not touch, I may get a steering shaft from a jeep like Mike did in his el camino. All and all they fit great and look good, and at just shy of $500 seem to me like a good deal especially for a hack of a welder like me Grin.

Still need to finish the mounts and build some gussets and then tear it all down again to finish weld everything and paint it all up. Took a bunch of pictures but my laptop crapped out on me and my govt work computer wont allow me to upload anything. Should have my laptop back next week and I will post the pictures.

Robbie

BTW Vern I think I am going to go with those header gaskets you mention cause some of the header bolts are going to be a real mother to tighten up and I only want to do it once!!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 03:27:49 PM by yellowroket » Logged
steelybill
C3
***
Posts: 190


« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 11:03:40 PM »

Sounds like you are getting there Robbie. Smiley  Those headers were designed for the G body, weren't they?  I believe the catalog sez that anyway.  I have stock '76 manifolds on my '75 El Camino. and even those are crowding the right A arm, and the left manifold heat shroud for carb heat needed a it of "friendly persuasion" to clear the steering intermediate shaft.  I also had to do an inverted dimple on the AC evaporator box, in order to make room to remove the right rocker cover, and used fiberglass for that.  My 11" brake booster was another clearance issue, being about 5/8" from the left rocker cover, but I machined a tapered shim to go behind it, to shift it over another 5/16".

The headers would have been nice for mine, but it's gonna be a daily driver, and I didn't want the usual header maintenance and issues.  So far I've made my exhaust down pipes from mandrel bent 2 1/2" stainless sections and some straight tubing from Summit racing, TIG welded together.  They are about 6" behind the trans cross member, and the mufflers should fit up OK.

 Was your 442 a big block car?  I don't know much about those, but one of my sons had an older one, like maybe a model in the late 70s.
  Your 3.73 gears do sound a bit steep, but that depends on how & where you drive it I suppose.

 BILL
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yellowroket
C2
**
Posts: 28


« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2011, 03:44:56 PM »

Bill
Slowly chuggin away at it. Yes the headers are for a G-body, I have a set of RWD manifolds and to be honest the headers fit way better than they do. Have plenty of room at the A-arm on right side and follow the contour of the firewall down, left side has to come in from underneath and theres only one way it will slip up in but again fits better than the manifold once its up in. My car has an 8" booster in it and has plenty of room there, I could see where an 11" could cause problems. These headers have thick flanges on them and with a set of quality gaskets like what Vern posted earlier should not require anything after they are bolted on (fingers crossed  Grin).

My 442 came with a 307 all of 190 horse I believe. I had a 355 roller motor in it last summer probably 400 horse. I put 3" all the way back with an X-built in and stainless magnaflow mufflers. 3" tail pipes suck haha, but got them though. Had to heat up 2 spots with a torch and massage them about a 1/4" to clear upper control arms. Alot of work but boy did it sound good. 3.73s are probably too steep but they are building an 1/8 mile track close to my house and I want to run em before I decide to swap them out. Mostly back roads here so I dont need a super fast rear. If I ever get my laptop back I will get the pictures up.

Robbie
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yellowroket
C2
**
Posts: 28


« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 07:12:34 PM »

Got all the parts for the motor cleaned and painted this weekend. Had heads milled .030 and are all buttoned up, had to shim up the rocker tees to get lifter pre load where I wanted it. Compression finished out at 8.8. Ordered my gaskets last week. Went to napa and they said there is no longer a "gasket set" available for the big caddys through them. Had to order a head gasket set and then a lower engine gasket set but it will all be here on wednesday. Got my plates made up and bolted to the motor mounts, just need to set it all back in and tack them in place. I bet I have had the engine and trans in and out a dozen times already. Still making progress but its been slow, weathers finally warming up so that will hopefully motivate me to step it up a little.
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Vern
C2
**
Posts: 60


« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 06:24:55 AM »

WWW.northernautoparts.com. Great place for basic stuff like their complete gasket sets for our Caddys.  Only get a good bicycle chain style timing chain no mesh style timing chain.  I used 3.73 with a 29" tall tire & a built 200-4r.  3rd gear would shift wot into 4th at 115mph which was the mph I was  setup to run so it worked for me but I had overdrive for traveling.  With OF my final drive ratio was 2.49.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:35:28 AM by Vern » Logged

87 Olds 442, 509 Cad, 800 Q-jet, Alum intake, Street portd heads, 230@50 528lift cam, Headers, 200-4r 2800 stall lock-up convertr, Electric fans & intank fuel pump, AC, 17mpg hwy

87 Buick GN, TE-60 turbo, stretch intercoolr, 42.5lb injector, 3" downpipe, Meth/water injection~Both 2 run 11.8ish113
yellowroket
C2
**
Posts: 28


« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 02:57:06 PM »

Vern,

I would love to use the 2004r, I still have the one that was originally in the car. I decided on my th400 because Im planning to spray it and also because I dont have the extra funds to beef the 200 up at the time. I tore the stocker up twice last summer behind a mild SBC. The cars going to primarly be used for racing and cruising back roads at the house. I tend to run my vehicles pretty hard so I think its my best bet. Maybe down the road I will put the 200 back in. Never even thought about northern auto parts, computers down at the house anyways so I ordered them the old fashion way lol.
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