High Performance Big Block Cadillacs
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Author Topic: 500 Cadillac in a '54 GMC 1-ton  (Read 28198 times)
ST Dog
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2009, 04:42:25 PM »

I think you confsing the pump issue.


Granted, if the hoses in the filter relocation kit break, you'll loose pressure. But I've not heard about that being common occurrence.
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OldSub
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 06:43:59 PM »

Well that is good news.

I know many big block Chevy applications use an oil cooler.  I would expect the remote oil filter line to be the right place to install an oil cooler on a Caddy.

Any comment on that?  Is there a better option?

I'll be using this truck for towing and expect to need a lot of cooling.
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sMiles
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2009, 09:29:26 AM »



If you do not have one on the transmission (a big cooler with fan and shroud) it would be cheap insurance for your T400.
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dave brode
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Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2009, 01:08:57 PM »

2 cents worth;

I don't like the idea of a remote filter. Although, I know that many trucks have oil coolers. My S-10 has one. However, the factory setups have a thermo controlled ass'y that sends the oil out to the cooler only after it is good and hot. That way, cold oil is not forced to travel a long way though lines. I would set it up that way, with a thermo controlled sandwich adapter. If there is no room for that, I would mount the filter VERY close to the engine and use at 3/4" lines.

I would want a very high quality exh valve and I would run an egt gauge. I might run a 2.11 pontiac intake, but I would keep the exh valve close to stock size so not to cut the induction hardened part of the seat away [assuming you'll use the late 500]. A 1.66" s/s pontiac valve could be cut a tad smaller.

I would not go for all out power. I would run a cam with fairly short duration and a wide lsa. I would build 1.625" primary headers with very long tubes. I would not bother with the edel intake.

If you just slap the used late 500 in, I would check the valve stem seals, replace t-chain and core plugs. It might live, but I would jet so the egt doesn't run too hot. If you run it lean, imo, the exh valves will go away.

I would build the biggest oil pan you can fit. 2 gallons or more of oil would be good. 2x the oil = oil has to work 1/2 as hard. Look at any heavy truck engine. They hold LOTS of oil. The old 366 and 427 gas truck and bus chevies had a 2 gallon oil pan. Even the small blocks had a big pan. Look at late diesel pickups. Lots of oil.  

Dave
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 01:15:07 PM by dave brode » Logged

3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
dave brode
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Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2009, 01:14:10 PM »


http://northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=1746

On a budget, you could dingle ball the bores, car wash clean the block, fine paper and bootlace polish the crank and have fresh rings and bearings.

 Esp if you pull the heads, you will have near 1/2 of this cost in gaskets.



Dave
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
OldSub
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2009, 01:36:02 PM »

Both my big block powered K3500 and small block powered K2500 have factory oil coolers, but do not have remote oil filters.  GM seems to have liked the oil cooler idea at least in '89 and '91 when my two trucks were built.

One of the reasons to use an oil cooler is to increase the amount of oil in circulation.  The lines and the cooler do add oil capacity.  Of course it also adds more places where oil can leak.

My plan has been to use an Eldo pan with no mods on this truck because I have one.  I suppose building a custom pan is possible, though I'd not thought about it.  I'm not confident I could weld up a leak free pan so I might need to hire that done.

My plan has been to run one of my two 500's basically as it, replacing the timing chain, valve seals and maybe the core plugs.  Keeping it cool is one of my priorities, and one of the reasons I propose running an oil cooler.

I may later build the other motor if I'm otherwise satisfied with the finished truck.  However even then I'm not inclined to push for maximum power, but rather reliable power, and I appreciate your suggestions on how to get there.

After reading some about modifications to these motors my first observation is that most that is written is geared to drag racing performance, and that's not what I'm interested it.  Reliable torque is my goal.

I'm curious why you would not use the Edelbrock intake?  It appears to make a real difference in power starting low enough to be significant to me.  The weight savings is also nice, but probably doesn't matter in my application.

Thanks!
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ST Dog
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2009, 11:29:50 PM »

What about an oil tank instead of/in series with a cooler.

A 1gal steel tank, wouldn't be too big and could be put out of the way.
Probably could find room for a 2gal tank.

Out from the pump to the bottom of the tank, out the top back to the pump.
Need a check valve on the tank inlet line, so the tank doesn't drain when not running.
Closer to the pump would be better.


It'd take a few minutes to work out the taps/plumbing to help keep air out.

Might find an off shelf solution though. Don't the big diesel truck use something like that?
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~JM~
Shop Keeper
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Posts: 1853


« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2009, 01:25:50 PM »

My concerns with the oil filter relocation kits have always been my thoughts that it may increase the amount of time that an engine runs before oil pressure has been built up during a cold start. Plus the added potential for leaks, to complete loss of lubrication due to a line failure.

The OEM filter mounting location on either the 425 or the 472/500 does not lend itself well to a four-wheel drive application with a passenger side front differential & almost requires the use of a filter relocation kit, depending upon the relationship of your front axle & amount of engine set-back.
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PS. You don't have enough cam. Grin

...Summit has a kit for $99.... Shocked
OldSub
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2009, 01:47:29 PM »

My project is not four-wheel-drive.  The stock engine mount/radiator mount crossmember crosses just through where the oil filter wants to hang.

I'm not familiar with the flow of oil in one of these motors, but I assume it first scavanges oil from from the pan and pressurizes, then pushes pressurized oil through the filter.  And the filter relocation kit plus any additional cooling would be between the oil pump and the oil being applied to any wear surfaces.

Any system with a single pump is going to create a possible pressure drop and increase the risk of problems from leaks.

Has anyone watched the engine oil temp on one of these motors?  Would cooling the oil make a difference?  Both watching exhaust temp keeping it cool have been mentioned.  Any approaches beyond the conventional cooling system?  
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sMiles
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2009, 03:47:10 PM »

.
Since the truck is for towing I tend to look at things from the anticipated operating conditions while doing its primary job.

Engine cooling comes from two systems primarily,  radiator coolant and engine oil.   Therefore,  I would use the largest radiator size I could fit to the vehicle and a clutch operated engine driven fan with a properly fitted shroud.  Alum two core large tube multipass is at the top of my list.   A dedicated engine oil cooler with shroud and fan and dash switch would be installed remote from the front of the radiator for the engine.  Mine is mounted in a wheel well with protective heavy mesh screen.  Instead of a remote filter I use a stock filter location with a 425 type pump for clearance with my front x-member. A remote by-pass oil filter from a separate source can be mounted anywhere.  In the other wheel well is the trans cooler/fan/shroud.

Anything mounted remote I use hvy truck/bus quality flex line and fasteners including zip ties.  If it is mounted so it can't flop around on the road its not likely to come loose or start leaking,  particularly if you eye ball it every oil change.

I think properly maintained temperatures lead to longer operating life and operating reliability,  all seasons.

Miles
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ST Dog
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Posts: 499



« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2009, 06:41:41 PM »

I think properly maintained temperatures lead to longer operating life and operating reliability,  all seasons.

Agreed. And, just like the coolant in the radiator and the transmission fluid, you want it at the proper temperature.

Too cold can be just as bad as too hot, something many people have run into with big transmission coolers.
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dave brode
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Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2009, 07:09:58 PM »

If you have the eldo pu tube, you could probably get $150 - $200 for the pan and tube to help finance a bigger oil pan.

Imo, an edelbrock would not be much advantage over a stock early non egr intake with some lovin' done to it in your towing rpm range.

Dave
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:06:44 PM by dave brode » Logged

3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
OldSub
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 09:44:53 PM »

Imo, an edel would not be much advantage over a stock early non egr intake with some lovin' done to it in your towing rpm range.
Since both my 500's are later motors with EGR I'd have to buy the early manifold.  My inclination would be to buy the Edelbrock instead unless there is a real advantage to the early stock manifold.
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OldSub
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2009, 09:49:07 PM »

If you just slap the used late 500 in, I would check the valve stem seals, replace t-chain and core plugs. It might live, but I would jet so the egt doesn't run too hot. If you run it lean, imo, the exh valves will go away.
I was thinking today about EGT gauges and how to implement one for this application.  It occurred to me that I have no idea what too hot would be.

Do you have experience that would suggest the ideal range?  Or a maximum not to exceed?

Thanks for your responses!
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dave brode
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Posts: 1074


Best of 11.66, 113.96, 1.59 sixty


« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 02:49:23 PM »


I was thinking today about EGT gauges and how to implement one for this application.  It occurred to me that I have no idea what too hot would be.

Do you have experience that would suggest the ideal range?  Or a maximum not to exceed?

Thanks for your responses!

I'm not an expert for sure, but I would think that 1300 ish would be getting up there with stock valves. A high grade valve might stand more. The 6000 series Ferrea are supposed to be good for the money [pontiac]

Dave
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3960 lb '71 C-10. 11.7-1 CR 514". PEP I beam rods floating MTS 18cc dish Probes, Elgin solid cam, home ported heads, MTS 2.19/1.84", Potter/Probe shaft rockers, edel 2115, 4781 850. Switch-pitch TH400, 12" 1800/3200 Tri-Shield convertor, 4.30 gears. Best so far of 11.66, 114.8 mph and 1.59 sixty
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